Curse

Daesu · Apr 09, 2010, 04:04 AM // 04:04

It doesn't matter whether you are a good player or not. As far as PUGs are concerned, they judge you immediately based on the profession you are in. For example, I have ALOT of problems getting into PUGs as an assassin but when I was a monk, I have no problems finding a group. All my other characters (necros, rits, eles) have fewer problems getting into a group.

It doesnt matter to them whether you are a good assassin player or not. PUGs discriminate and they discriminate against assassins ALOT!

Risus · Apr 09, 2010, 05:36 AM // 05:36

this is why you stay in alliance teams and away from the retards

JimmyNeutron · Apr 09, 2010, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Rule #69

- If you're a healer, heal only people that listen to you regardless of you being the leader or not. Remember, they need you more than you need them to succeed.

godis · Apr 09, 2010, 08:06 AM // 08:06

This is one long commercial thread for 7 heroes :-)

SunfallE · Apr 09, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

Nothing is worse than being asked to take a build that is totally new to you. It cripples you and makes your presence a wasted team slot.

/signed

That more than anything put me off from trying any pug for the longest time. The few times I did they didn't like my build (I was, and still am, quite new to the game) and what was suggested I either didn't have or wasn't used to running.

If I'm going to run an entire new build, even if it's tested and proven, I want a chance to get used to it. Or at least have people realize that it's going to take a little time to adjust to it.

Now that I've started actually joining pug's I rarely ping my build unless someone asks. Or I'll ask if they have a preference if someone is running the same class and I'll alter it on my own since I know what I'm comfortable with.

Oh and totally agree with the communication bit. It's hard to know what people expect if they don't tell you.

zwei2stein · Apr 09, 2010, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Being "build" nazi sucks for everyone involved anyway:

If you see party member with "fail" build, you are going to be uncomfortable because you "know" that said player could be way more effective if he switched to something else (and hence, mission would be much easier and relaxed experience). If you suceed, it does not help much however, because you would still notice him not playing it "righ"

If you have your own build and some random person who you did not met before suggests you are idiot, your build cant work and you need to change it, you are going to be pissed and insulted and should you decide to accomodate him, you are going to struggle with new build and here goes your enjoyment of game.

Just learn to let it go, you will be much happier. You will fail more, but hey, Loosing Is Fun(tm). Who knows, maybe that sucky build actually works just fine.

I just wish game had more people who would want to cooperate on builds and make "team build". Bud that never really happened outside friend groups anyway. Shame.

Silmar Alech · Apr 09, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

My experiences with PUGs are mostly good. Most players do what is right, follow whoever turns out to be the leader. That's not always the person on top of the party list. Most have decent builds that beat the mission.

Sometimes, people solve the mission differently from what I am used to. This is my main motivation in joining PUGs.

There were bad encounters as well. You named them all. I see it as an additional challenge - beat the mission even with one or two idiots. For this, I have set PUG rules for myself:
- do PUG only if you don't "need" that mission or have much time, so failure is no loss or wasted time.
- never leave. Ever. If the team dissolves mid-mission, all /resign collectively or I am the last person in the party.
- comment on pinged builds only if I have to say something constructive. But if I have to say something, I definitely will say something. People cannot improve if no one comments on builds.
- as monk, heal everyone. Regardless of the flames he may have written. Regardless of how bad he plays. He is a member of the party and is trying to achieve victory, so he deserves healing. Shout at the team only after a fight.

There is only one kind of person I really despise - leechers. Fortunately, up to now whenever a leecher was identified, all party members left in consent and we restarted without the leecher. I never have a problem with people saying: 'wait, door bell rang' and waiting 5 minutes until he comes back. But I do have a problem with people saying nothing but simply stay behind or do actually nothing during fights, not even auto-attack.

Tharg · Apr 09, 2010, 01:38 PM // 13:38

yes, playing as a monk, I try to heal / prot everybody of course. But there always seems to be a sin around that thinks he is a tank and he ends up costing me 80% of my time and energy - and dies anyway. It's just not worth it keeping him alive. And then he ends up calling me a noob... Very frustrating.

Kook~NBK~ · Apr 09, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

To me it all starts with the party leader. IMHO, a good party leader...:

1. Will advertize that he/she is forming a party more than once every 10 minutes.
2. Will know if there's a hero required for the task at hand and hold a spot open for that hero.
3. Will listen to what's being said - I don't know how many times I've mentioned that we need hero X (after the party size reaches 5 or 6) but the party leader fails to keep a space open for the hero
4. Will know what role each party member is set to play (please don't have two SoS rits, TYVM), without dictating to them. ("could you go xxxx?" works much better than "Monk go heals.")
5. Will NOT do "cattle calls" to form a party!
6. Will be able to recognize decent builds even if they're not PvXwiki cookie-cutters.
7. Will ask questions and/or make suggestions about a member's build if it's "iffy"
8. Will offer suggestions if a pinged build is bad, and isn't afraid to kick the person with the bad build if they insist on running it.
8. Will kick anyone who says "Kick the Mesmer."

Quaker · Apr 09, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

This is exactly the sort of dickwad attitude I was talking about. This is the sort of player who ruins PUG'ing for others.
I thank you for being a bad example.

P.s - here's a strategy for people who don't like to ping their build and/or change their build. If someone asks you to ping your build, load up a regular PvX build, ping it, and then change back to your regular build.

Karate Jesus · Apr 09, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by godis

This is one long commercial thread for 7 heroes :-)

^ True. I really hope they go to that soon (although, they wont). It's getting harder and harder to get teams in elite areas.

The Drunkard · Apr 09, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunfallE

/signed

That more than anything put me off from trying any pug for the longest time. The few times I did they didn't like my build (I was, and still am, quite new to the game) and what was suggested I either didn't have or wasn't used to running.

If I'm going to run an entire new build, even if it's tested and proven, I want a chance to get used to it. Or at least have people realize that it's going to take a little time to adjust to it.

I think that you've brought up a great point that if you want to pug, some times you're going to have to play builds you've never seen before. And for the people who are relatively new to the game, it can be a bit frustrating. However, the point of teaming up is to coordinate skillsets and synergize, not to play your favorite build.

One problem is that people only want efficiency nowadays. It's sad how many groups shun me for trying to pug with a mesmer, even if I mention that I've almost UAS and am flexible for builds. People don't want to fail a mission, they want to complete it and cash in for the reward. Although my situation is a bit different than yours, they both illustrate that egos will always keep Pugs in the poor state that they're in.

Burst Cancel · Apr 10, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

While it's nice to be able to drop into a pug and blaze through the mission with everyone doing their implied jobs in total silence

And this is the answer to everyone who asks, "why are you trying to control the way I play? how does the way I play affect anyone else?" A team-based game benefits tremendously from a playerbase with high average skill; the mere existence of a participating population of lesser-skilled players actually decreases enjoyment of the game universally. If all GW players actually met a baseline level of competence, there wouldn't be any PuG threads, because the PuG experience would have much more to recommend it.

As for builds and pinging, it is often important for the rest of your team to know what you are running; as such, hiding your build in the manner suggested by Quaker is counterproductive and therefore idiotic. As a monk, for instance, I need to know what kind of utility my team is bringing, whether other party members have self-heals/buffs, and whether there are potential liabilities (e.g., Frenzy, touch-range or PBAoE skills on squishies, etc.). In some cases, my build will need to be adjusted to compensate for gaps or to avoid redundancy (e.g., bringing Aegis when the team has blinds or wards).

You also need to recognize that while you have the right to play whatever skill bar you want, others have the right to not play with you. It is frankly hypocritical and juvenile to be offended by others criticizing your build while being perfectly willing to trick people into playing with you by hiding your build. If you want to play an unorthodox build, it is your responsibility to convince a group to take you. No one appreciates having their time wasted by a liar.

zwei2stein · Apr 10, 2010, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

This is exactly the sort of dickwad attitude I was talking about. This is the sort of player who ruins PUG'ing for others.
I thank you for being a bad example.

P.s - here's a strategy for people who don't like to ping their build and/or change their build. If someone asks you to ping your build, load up a regular PvX build, ping it, and then change back to your regular build.

Seriously, your ps advice is even more dickwadish, malicious, pretty much irgnorant and definitelly worth making sure you are not going to be in any of my parties.

If you are not going to change build, fine, don't. But do not lie about what you are going to bring to table. Because, and here is problem:

Good player will propably react to your ping by synergizing, dropping any "doubled" skills or loading completelly different build. You just pissed him off royally.

Build nazi *will* notice and *will* point it out, and party will fall apart.

---

Basically, what you say is "It is okay to lie to fellow party members". It is not. Good communication is basis of success.

Why would you even lie about it? Are you so desperate for party that you can't simply leave for more realxed group and let nazis to do their thing alone? Or do you just want to piss people off?

Frankly, I can not believe same person as OP of this thread wrote this post. Respect=0.

Corebreach · Apr 10, 2010, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

A team-based game benefits tremendously from a playerbase with high average skill; the mere existence of a participating population of lesser-skilled players actually decreases enjoyment of the game universally. If all GW players actually met a baseline level of competence, there wouldn't be any PuG threads, because the PuG experience would have much more to recommend it.

What can be done to work toward this goal constructively?

Allamorph · Apr 10, 2010, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corebreach

What can be done to work toward this goal constructively?

Communication. On all fronts.

Say I drop into a pug because they needed an MM and I said I was an MM. Say also that I've been MMing for just a few days, didn't really research the concept, and haven't got the greatest build together, and say I'm a fairly young player in the sense that it doesn't intuitively occur to me how to properly structure a build, either in a solo sense or in a party-synergy sense.

If I start screwing up and players start bitching at me, you can guess the attitude I'm going to take out of that experience. Without helpful criticism (yes, tell me what's wrong or what's better, but also tell me why and how; e.g. "there's a lot of random knockdown in Arborstone; I'd go Flesh Golem instead of Aura of the Lich, so you have some redundant skills") I'm going to learn nothing, and the same bitching is going to happen next time I pug.

But unless I ping my build when asked, and am honest about the build I'm going to be using—in other words, unless I am willing to risk getting my fragile feelings hurt—that can't even start to happen. And the same bitching is going to happen next time I pug, because I'm too self-absorbed to be willing to learn.

The other side of that, though, is that if as a veteran player your first reaction is to instaboot when you see a bad build, or to start bitching when the mission goes sour (got a story about that; happened just tonight, actually), you sure as heck ain't doin' anything to decrease the amount of noob stupidity screwing up your clean runs. About the only thing you're gonna do is make yourself look like a royal ass. And even if you're a good player, the heck I'm gonna pug with you again.

The better thing would be to be willing to take some oh-so-precious time to explain things as necessary: better builds, generally or map-specific; map tactics (pull this here, don't stand there, attack these first), even if it's just a cursory check to make sure people know what their role is; and generally not being a dick just because you've been playing since the game was born and you know everything there is to know about the game and if someone doesn't like that then they can go to hell 'cause they sure as hell ain't GWAMM eight times over.

(Gonna take me a while yet to do that, by the way. > >;; )

tl;dr: Chatter. I love chatter. Makes me feel like there's someone else with a brain on the other end. Especially if there's more than one other person talkin', 'cause I like crackin' jokes when I play, and if I ain't got an audience then what the frick is the point.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

...the mere existence of a participating population of lesser-skilled players actually decreases enjoyment of the game universally.

Actually, I have to disagree with this part of your post. It's not so much the existence of skill-level variances; rather, it's the existence of people who can't deal with skill-level variances, whether they're the super-awesome guys or the super-sucky guys.

It's the lack of open-ness.

Quaker · Apr 10, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

P.s - here's a strategy for people who don't like to ping their build and/or change their build. If someone asks you to ping your build, load up a regular PvX build, ping it, and then change back to your regular build.

I wasn't being entirely serious here, but I guess some people can't take a joke.

(I certainly wasn't suggesting that someone say they are, for example, an MM, and then change their build to something completely different.)

Note too, that in my original post I was not really complaining about people who want you to ping your skill bar and/or suggest changes before you enter the quest/mission/area. I mostly PUG these days in Z-quests, and I don't mind pinging my build because I am aware that there can be conflicts skill-wise, etc. In fact, if I'm playing a Monk or Rit, I'll want the other Monks or Rits to ping.
If I get kicked because they didn't like my build, or I leave because I don't want to change mine, well ..... Z-PUGs are like buses, if you miss one, there's always another coming along.

However, in combination with my post about Heroes not needing me, there are only a few places and Z-quests that actually need anything specific - places like DoA for example. But, I can do almost all of HM with just Heroes and Henchies, and as my "Heroes don't need me" post suggests, you often as not don't even need a full party.
My main problem is the people who go all Nazi while doing some simple Z-quest like Bloodstone cave, as if everything needs to be perfect to get it done. If you are in a big hurry to finish it, or don't want to take the chance of failing - do it with H&H or Guildmates, don't PUG. Leave the pugging to those who enjoy it.

I just had a thought though - perhaps some of these people who get so uptight about everyone's builds and methods, can't/don't/won't use heroes and henchies, otherwise I can't see why they bother with PUGs. To me, the fun of PUG'ing is the different builds and methods - I'm there to enjoy the game, not "get 'er done." If I want to guarantee success I go with H&H or, best of all, Guildmates & Heroes on Ventrilo.

Morphy · Apr 10, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

For PvE - Don't pug, take heroes instead. Except for stuff like tank n spanking and pulling mobs Heroes are pretty much better than 99% of the PvE community. If you REALLY want to play with PUGs that badly, be the team's leader, tell your team members what you want them to do and if they don't, kick them. If you suck ass, don't lead teams. It makes you look like a major jackass.

For PvP - If you're unranked, don't PUG. Try to find a proper guild instead and prove yourself. An alternative is to run a gimmicky build such as RtL spike that any moron can play and farm randomways.

If you're ranked, join ranked teams and make ranked teams. Use your rank to your advantage. People that are unranked are rarely good. You CAN try to teach them what they're supposed to do, but this is time consuming and in general ineffective. Not all ranked players are good, but you can easily kick the bad eggs out of the basket if needed.

This is of course all assuming you are in fact a good PvP player. If you aren't, you deserve to lose until you get good. End of story.

zwei2stein · Apr 10, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I wasn't being entirely serious here, but I guess some people can't take a joke.

Oh, joke? Well, smiley does not make something automatically joke or lighthearted post I am afraid. You should know that from guru

In seriousness thou: People actually do that (and it is incredibly angering and party killer as you can see), and your advice sounded "sound" enough to validate that or to follow it...

Some jokes are better off never made

.

---

Anyway, actually on topic:

Yes, in order to enjoy pug you have to learn let go and do make sacrifices. It pretty does not matter if you are going to be annoyed because you hand to change build or annoyed because someone did not change build.

Here is problem: Egos. Some people just wont let go and if two of them clash, it is bad. And in MMOS, all egos are inflated and unlikely to yield to random stranger.

Basically, no-one can compromise or take one for a team. Why?

Regulus X · Apr 10, 2010, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

This is exactly the sort of dickwad attitude I was talking about. This is the sort of player who ruins PUG'ing for others.
I thank you for being a bad example.

P.s - here's a strategy for people who don't like to ping their build and/or change their build. If someone asks you to ping your build, load up a regular PvX build, ping it, and then change back to your regular build.

Oh no... he was being serious. And YOU, dear sir, ruin PUGing! Lying, aggroing, being retarded with arbitrary skills, a stubborn yet stupid mentality, playing mind-blindedly, Leeroying, stealing drops, etc... (tip of the iceberg rly)... are the qualities that make heroes and henchmen much, MUCH, MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH more appealing.